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After the excellent interview with
The following quote proves that he's no conventionalist;
"They make some sherried whisky,
why shouldn't I make some peated wine?"
E-pistle #04/01 - An interview with Olivier 'Zind' Humbrecht
by
Serge Valentin, France
Well, this is a very special interview! Is that enough? No? Okay, then read this. And oh, while we're at it, Olivier is Master of Wine.
Yes, for this fourth edition of Maltmaniacs I decided to interview a wine star instead of a malt guru.
Why that, you should ask? Well I've got many reasons for interviewing Olivier Humbrecht.
First, the whisky industry is using more and more sherry casks, Port casks, claret casks, Burgundy casks, Sauternes casks... So yes, whisky has something to do with wine,
as it manipulates a lot of wine related concepts nowadays. Secondly, Olivier's one of the few guys who know a lot about wine, and a lot about whisky as well. Anyway, if you're a wine fan somehow, you already know Olivier's property, Domaine
Zind-Humbrecht in Turckheim, Alsace.
But for those who are 'only' malt freaks, juts try to google it.
You'll see what you'll see.
He's been elected "Best
Whitewinemaker of the Year" by Wine Magazine several times as well. He doesn't even remember exactly how many times: "At least five or six times during the last fifteen years, I think", does he say quite modestly. No need to say
that dozens of Olivier's wines have been rated 100 by Robert Parker, Jr. (you know, the Michael Jackson of wine). And oh, by the way, I think Olivier makes the only wine in the world that smells and tastes peat: the stupendous Rangen de Thann.
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Q1 - Olivier, with such a background you could have stuck to wine, Cognac and Armagnac. I remember, a long time ago,
my father had a friend who was a shareholder of a famous distillery in the Lowlands. When the distillery went bankrupt, he only got two casks of whisky as a compensation, but he didn't know what to do with the casks. So, he shipped the casks
to my father's cellar, here in Alsace, where they have been resting peacefully for a few more years. That was my first contact with the magic of whisky... A few years later, while I was a student in London, I met Margaret, who was to become my
wife. Margaret is born Scottish, and despite the fact that she left her homeland when she was quite young, she always kept a strong relationship with Scotland. That's why we used to drive quite often to the Highlands. I remember, I had been
that impressed by the casks my father had in his cellar, that we decided to drive to Speyside, and to ring at every distillery's door to buy two or three casks of whisky. I wanted to let a few more casks age in our cellar... No need to say
nobody agreed to meet us. I understood that all these distilleries did belong to some big groups, and that the distilleries' managers were by no mean allowed to take any decision such as selling two damned casks to a couple of Franco-Scottish
kids. Q2 - How unromantic! I thought the Scots were easy people... No, because finally, one distillery accepted to meet us and to discuss the possibility of
selling a few casks to us: Glenfarclas. They were very friendly, and they let us taste a lot of different malts. Yes, very cool people, but it was difficult for them to organise the shipment right away. They told us to wait a little, and to
contact them again. It appeared to be quite complicated... And we dropped the idea. Too bad! But I remember, just before we had to drive back to London, we went at Gordon & MacPhails, Elgin. And I bought my first bottle of malt there. It
was a Macallan 18yo 1971. Not bad for a start, don't you think? Q3 - Oh, yes! These Macs 18yo from the seventies are part of the legend. No, of course not.
Q4 - Great! Which whiskies did he advise? Many different malts. Q5 - Tell me, what are your favourite malts? Islayers of course, by far! I think half of my bottles are Islays.
Q6 - Of course! Which one shall we have? I've got a rather old Ardbeg 1974/1997 (51.2%, Signatory Vintage, cask #1063-1065) I like a lot.
Wow, this isn't a dram, it's almost half a glass ! The colour is pure gold. Q7 - Now, Olivier, what do you think about the increasing relationship between the wine and whisky worlds? You know, as an Alsacian winemaker, I'm highly interested in both worlds. In the old days, in Alsace,
everybody did distil fruit… And all the winemakers did distil the by-products of the grapes. Lees, stems… I use to distil myself every year. I even use some eau de vie to re-alcoholize our casks every year, just before I pour the must into
them. As with any kind of wine casks, you've got to evacuate the sulphur that's always burnt into a cask after it has been emptied. So you rinse it with some acidified water, so that the wood opens up again. This process lets the wood being
full of water, and my re-alcoholization allows to re-prepare the wood properly. Of course, I distil the alcohol I use myself, so that the wine's characteristics 'stay in the family'. Some winemakers in Burgundy let some alcohol boil, then
throw it in their open vats, and let it burn. I can tell you, this method cleans up everything! So, you see, spirit is sometimes involved in the wine making process, as wine is involved in the whisky making one. When they use wine cask, of
course… Q8 - That's very interesting, even if a little technical for our non-wine readers. Oh yes! I don't know if this will be
allowed by law, but I'll ask a friend who's a French cooper, the guy from 'Magic Casks', to try to burn some peat into some new oak cask. As you know, they always burn some wood into the new casks, just before they're assembled definitely.
This does suppress the green tannins, and allows the cooper to form the cask properly. Otherwise, the wood would be too rigid to be bent. Anyway, I'll ask Magic Casks to burn some peat instead of wood… Should be funny! After all, the whisky
industry uses some sherry, why shouldn't some winemakers use peat? But well, I'm not sure the results will be perfect… Q9 - But your 'Rangen de Thann' is already kind of peaty!
Yes, I know… Some say that. But these particular aromas only come from the 'terroir', which is volcanic…
Q10 - Yes, I know. I was joking… By the way, do you drink whisky with meal sometimes? Oh yes! Whisky is much easier to drink with food than, let's say white eau de vie or Cognac. And the very peated whiskies have got an
aromatic structure that's much closer to wine than Cognac, although the latter is distilled wine. But it's very difficult to drink wine and malt during the same meal, as one kills the other. I must say that usually, the malt wins… Q11 - Let's talk about the wine casks used by the whisky industry now. Of course. But I always prefer to go back at a product's origins. Why did the Scots use some
former wine casks, mainly sherry casks? Not to improve their whiskies' taste, of course! They used them just because they were much cheaper than new oak casks. Moreover, I'm sure they found out that a brand new oak cask does change the product
a lot, especially its mouth structure. It brings some types of tannins, and some aromas that aren't always very good. Sometimes, oak may actually improve a product, but some other times, it may well denature it. I'm not convinced that some
heavy wood treatment is always good for the best single malts. And if the wood has been heavily impregnated by the product it did contain formerly, you won't find the malt's 'signature' anymore. Anyway, the use of new oak casks is to be
avoided for whisky maturing. Exactly like for the Calvados! I wonder if a great single malt isn't as its best when matured in an old cask that hadn't contained any other product than whisky for dozens of years…
Q12 - So, Olivier, you mean the best single malts shouldn't need wood? Yes, in a certain sense. Of course, they need wood because it'll let the malt mature properly. Breathing, slow chemical changes, melting of the aromas… All
these processes are very important. But every time I tasted a whisky where the wood was dominating all the other aromas, even when dealing with some bourbon casks, it was just a curiosity, not a pleasure. Wood always lets you loose the
original product's characteristics. Q13 - Yes, but when the original product isn't that good, maybe it's the best solution… Exactly! No need to comment on this any further… Q14 - Alright, but we all know whisky is an industry. I mean, they have to stick to the market… Sure,
like yoghurt, ice cream or frozen pizzas. But as a winemaker, I feel a 'spiritual miss' here. Look, the great distilleries carry the name of a special place, a valley, a village etc. In wine, the place where the product is harvested and made
is the main influence, whereas in whisky making, I think this is just not respected enough. What should we think about a distillery that:
What did the distillery itself 'give' to the product? Oh yes, its stills' style… I would like to find some whiskies that offer the distillery's style, of course, but I'd also like to see some distilleries buy the
barley at local farmers', malt the barley themselves… Even if it's only for their highest range. In short, to get 100 to 500 euros for a bottle, shouldn't they wear themselves out a little more? Q15 - I can't agree
more, but it's very easy for them to chose the best few casks amongst 10,000 lying in some warehouses, to bottle their best expressions… It's too easy! That's what the biggest wine companies in France do. I can understand that
when dealing with mass-market products. But a top-notch whisky shouldn't be the same as the low range one - which just happened to age particularly well. Look, I'm sure this trend will arrive on the malt market. People are going to seek
authenticity above everything else. That's what happened with the best wines, a few years ago… This just lets me think about what happened in the Napa Valley. At the beginning, some winemakers did settle down there, and just let
the grapes come from the other side of the country. And it was selling! Thanks God, a new law was laid down eight years ago. Yes, that's not old! So, when you drink a wine from Napa now, it's a wine from Napa! And I would like to drink a malt
from Islay, that's really a malt from Islay! I know what you think, I may be a little excessive. But I'm a winemaker, and a winemaker is a producer, not an engineer, nor a chemist.
Q16 - Some say the spirit doesn't matter, only the maturing process counts… Yes, I know some people think that water, yeast, barley etc. do not matter, as everything's distilled then. Q17 - Isn't it what Springbank did with its Local Barley series?
Yes, and don't you think these are excellent and very typical? Hum, no… You see! Of course, when dealing with the common
whiskies like, let's say Glenkinchie, maybe all this is not very important, even if, when you sell a bottle for 30 euros, you could always spend a few more cents for some better barley, yeast etc. But as for the great whiskies, they should be
more caring. I think very few distilleries really care about their raw materials origins, and maybe that's the biggest difference between wine and whisky. Furthermore, I think it's just because of this very difference, that the whisky world
doesn't really understand the wine world. Q18 - I think you made your point, Olivier. I think
that buying fifty empty casks anywhere in Europe, then letting some so-so whisky age a few months in them, then selling it with no further consideration is nonsense. That's why I'm not really interested in the idea of 'finishing.' Moreover,
you need to manipulate the spirit a lot to do that. You must vat the spirit two times, and I'm not sure it's very good for the whisky. As for wine, this method – some big companies do that – is very dangerous for its quality. The more you
touch a product, the more you 'break' it. Of course, I know whisky is less fragile than wine, but still… Q19 - And what about these whiskies' tastes? Look, as whisky needs much more time to mature
than wine, I'm afraid a finishing won't allow a good osmosis of the different elements. In fact, it's only a matter of aromatizing. Or perhaps is it the best way to mask a bad product. But where's the authenticity?
Q20 - Now, Olivier, why not explain to us the differences between all the types of casks the industry's using. I mean, not the sizes etc, but in which sense they do influence a whisky's taste…
Sure… But remember, I'm no whisky maker, I'm a winemaker… Q21 - Ok, what about the bourbon casks? Oh, these are the ones I don't know well, as bourbon is no wine (smile). But I can say they're made
out of American oak, of course. American oak's also used by some Spanish winemakers in Penedes, Rioja, the Spanish part of Douro… American oak's always used to produce some very heavy wines. The tannins are extremely dry, very, very big, and
always very rustic. French oak is more elegant, and is used by most chateaux in the United Sates or in France. So, no wonder most bourbon whiskeys are extremely oaky. They also get the 'burnt' wood taste coming from any newly made cask. Q22 - Great, but the bourbon casks have less influence on the malt. Isn't it a paradox? No, because the wood's tannins are much more dissolved by spirit than by wine or fortified wine. In short, the
bourbon itself gets most of the tannins. When a cask reaches Scotland, it's become much more neutral than, let's say a sherry cask. To me, the greatest whiskies have been matured in some 'neutral' casks.
Q23 - Ok, but then, why do the malt people think that a 1st refill cask is better than a 2nd refill? As a winemaker, I would
say this has just nothing to do with quality. The heavy use of new oak casks in the wine industry is a very recent concept… Perhaps a thirty years old one. Depending on the thickness, quality and origin (yes!) of the wood and the style of the
wine, a cask will wear out more or less quickly. (Sweet wines are very damaging for wood, the residual sweetness left in the wood is often transformed into volatile acidity-vinegar, limiting the use of the barrels). It is absolutely possible
that a normal barrique (usually about 1 inch thick) can be worn out after having had strong spirit over 12, 20 or more years. A first refill would then be the optimal condition for a good maturation of whisky: not too young, not too old. In a
second refill, the wood maybe already too dried out, too porous…. Causing too fast ageing. Now again, this is what we see in wine making. In many cases, the 'second wine' casks are the best.
Q24 - What about the sherry casks? Sherry casks use to be filled up over and over again, until they fall apart! Anyway, their oaky notes are never very strong, partly because they are twice as big as a regular cask. This means
there's much less contact oak/liquid. The main grape variety used to be the Pedro Ximenez for the sweeter wines, now largely replaced by the Palomino Fino– which is by no way the rarest, as some people from the industry try to let us think. Traditionnal sherry is always fermented in new oak casks. (But stainless steel or glass fibre is developing strongly). The young Sherry wines are kept in casks not completely full to the top, allowing air to penetrate and gradually
oxidize the wine. The wine will react by developing a layer of yeast that will cover the wine almost like cream on top of milk. (you find the same principle in the Jura wines - not Isle of Jura…! - like Vins Jaunes or Chateau Chalon) This
Sherry flor will give a very strong taste to the wine, and eventually to the whisky matured in such casks. During the ageing, the different qualities of Sherry are separated and classified (Palo, Oloroso, Manzanilla, fino). The best finos
becoming Amontillados.… Sherrys are then aged according to the solera system: one part of a cask is bottled, the missing volume is replaced by the sherry one year younger and so on…on a many years scale. By the way, a sherry is a white wine,
and not a red wine, as many people think. But white wine has got some colour as well! Q25 - But why are some very sherried whiskies red and dark?
This comes from the oxidation, as I told you, and the amount of flor on the cask. Q26 - Now, we know a lot more about sherry, thanks. The Port wine makers use some huge casks, and butts are very scarce, except for the higher qualities like Vintage
Ports. The grape variety they use, the tinto negro or touriga nacional, is very coloured and powerful. That's why I think using Port wine casks to mature some whisky is nothing but a colouring and aromatizing method. Or a marketing gimmick, if
you like. Q27 - OK, Olivier, we're almost finished now. I know some distilleries use some Sauternes casks. It's very aromatic. Does
it give a 'plus' to the whisky? I don't know, I didn't taste a Sauternes finished whisky yet. But if it's a whisky that smells Sauternes, I'd better go for Sauternes. As for the red wine finishing, like Bordeaux – the Anglo-Saxon say Claret -
or Burgundy, or even wines from the Rhone valley like Hermitage, I really wonder what's the use of doing this. The wood is quite thick, and as it's made out of French oak, the fibres are very tight. This means that it is good for ageing a
spirit only if the spirit spends a long time in the cask, because the spirit doesn't really breath enough. The finishing concept makes no sense for me in a top whisky, I think it's just a matter of aromatizing and colouring, not unlike the use
of Port butts. Or perhaps is it just marketing? But having said that, I'd be curious to try a top malt aged for decades in a good Sauternes cask. Q28 - Thanks Olivier, thanks a lot. Yes, now I'm thirsty. Olivier opened a bottle of Bruichladdich 26yo (45%, Stillman's
Dram, #185) It's a bottle from the Invergordon era. The nose was fresh, very nicely balanced, with some melon, watermelon, peach, apricot, and even a little kiwi. Some sea air as well. The mouth was very elegant, with some fruity notes and a
little vanilla fudge. Finish: some salt on the tongue. Very nice but a little less impressive than the 'new old' Laddies. (87) Serge Valentin
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www.winebow.com/france/alsace/zindhumbrect/zindhumb1.htm
How come did you become a malt aficionado?
You must have been very frustrated...
But it's strange to hear that you were willing to buy two casks before you buy any single bottle!
But OK, have you been hooked on malt since that very day?
When my London time was finished, we came back to Alsace, where we settled down.
But every year, we were flying back to Scotland for some holidays. And one day, while driving through Inveraray, I discovered a tiny shop full of whisky. It
was Loch Fyne, at their former location. Their new shop is much bigger. Of course, we stopped by, and the owner did let me taste a whole bunch of fantastic whiskies. That was my first heavy dramming ever. I asked the guy - I guess he was
Richard Joynson - to tell me which malts I should buy as a virtual newbie. And I must say the quality of his pieces of advice was what allowed me to really enter the world of the great single malts.
For instance, I bought a Springbank Local Barley (they were much cheaper than today, I can tell you). I bought also an old Ardbeg 10yo. Maybe I paid ten or
fifteen pounds for it. Now, it costs thousands! Let me tell you, I think the new 10yo is better. Anyway, every year, I used to go back to Loch Fyne's to discover new malts - and to buy a few new bottles. We started to organise some Scottish
parties at home every year as well. And we were drinking more whisky than wine during these evenings, which is quite strange at a winemaker's place... At this time, I think it was in 1995, I happened to meet a Cambridge teacher who presented a
bottle of the Scotch Malt Whisky Society to me. I remember, it was a Bruichladdich 1974/1990. He did write on a back label: "A great introduction to the Islay whisky". I liked it right away... Since these days, all this never stopped
accelerating, day after day...
I really like my most recent discovery as well: Brora,
like you Serge. I like sherry as well, but it has to be very well made. It's easier to sip with friends. In fact, I've got no preconceived idea. When it's good, I'm interested. For instance, I really like a lot the Auchentoshan 1966 OB or the
St. Magdalene 19yo RM, even if they're no Islayers. And I never buy a bottle just for collecting. I always plan to open my bottles one day… But let's have a dram now. Would you like an Ardbeg?
Let's poor two drams…
The nose is very smooth and elegant. A very nice mix of peat and cooked apple. The mouth shows a lot of peat, smoke, iodine, salt and pepper. Yes, more pepper
than usually. It's superb, and I would say less sour and oily than Douglas Laing's OMCs from the same years. My rating: 92. It's just a little less complex than the 1966/1996 Signatory Olivier used to carry with him in his silver hip flask…
But didn't you tell me you had a crazy idea about wine and peat?
Nothing to do with burning peat, I can tell you!
You've tasted a lot of these, I guess…
Of course, if the kind of cask that's used by a distillery is part of the product's style, no problem!
But changing all the time is not interesting at all.
I think each distillery should look for the best spirit/cask combination, and then stick to it.
It's an absurdity. I'm sure anybody will see a difference if a distillery buys its raw materials in its neighbourhood…
Did you ever sample any other malt that tastes exactly like a Local Barley?
Now, what do you think about all these 'wine finished' whiskies that pop up everywhere on the market?
(or a 2nd refill than a 3rd refill, etc...)
Anyway, a sherry cask won't give much oak character to a malt, just because it's been used several years by the winemakers through the solera system. Again,
when a sherry maker gets rid of one of his casks, it means it's almost broken, according to winemakers' standards! But as the cask has contained a lot of sherry several time, it will give a lot of sherry character to the whisky. Not to mention
the solera casks, that are never emptied… Oh, by the way, the sherry casks are very bad casks usually. I mean for wine. As the concept is to let the wine oxidise, the wood is very thin and very loose, so that the process goes faster.
Why not say a few words about Port?
Please tell me a few words about the use of 'table' wine casks…
Now we know a lot more about 'wine and whisky'.
Something more to say?
Let's have another dram together…
Do you want to learn more about Olivier and Zind Humbrecht wines?
Here are a couple of URL's;
www.abfw.co.uk/agencies/zind_humbrecht.htm
www.geocities.com/NapaValley/4709/zind.html
Or just Google it...
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Click HERE for an overview of other articles in MM#4.
Overview of available interviews:
Malt Maniacs #1 - Derek M. Gilchrist
Malt Maniacs #2 - Mark Reynier
Malt Maniacs #3 - Raymond Armstrong
Malt Maniacs #4 - Olivier Humbrecht
Malt Maniacs #5 - Keir Sword